November 23, 2021

John Ainsworth is the founder and CEO at Data Driven Marketing. They help online course creators to double their revenue in 8 weeks through awesome marketing funnels. He’s been building funnels for 10 years, and is a digital nomad much of the time.

In today’s interview, I interview him about 3 proven strategies you can use to increase your revenue: increasing your cart value, emailing your list more often and growing your email list.

Watch the video of my interview with John or read the transcript below!


John’s Company, Data Driven Marketing Free Calculator to See How Much More You Could Be Making from Your Online Course Business Deadline Funnel


Jack Born: Hey, everyone. This is Jack Born, founder of Deadline Funnel, and I’m here with John Ainsworth, the founder of Data Driven Marketing. And today we’re gonna be talking about something that is near and dear to my heart, which is how to focus on the fundamentals to increase your conversions, especially for course creators and for people who are using email marketing to generate leads, to nurture those leads and to build a business that can sustain your lifestyle. So, John, thank you so much for being here.

John Ainsworth: Great honor. Thank you very much, Jack.

Jack Born: Yeah, so why don’t we start with a little bit about your company? And also, we were talking offline before we hit ‘record’ where you’re located in the world. I’m sure there’s a fascinating story behind that, so why don’t we start there?

John Ainsworth: Yeah, so my business is Data Driven Marketing, and what we do is we help online course creators to double to about five times their revenue. Most people can double their revenue we found in about three months and then five times and kind of six times in six months in a year. And we do it through group coaching and the done-for-you service for a few people at a time as well. But yeah, we’re out in out in Mexico. The team’s still over in Europe. I flew out to Mexico for a conference and decided we’re just gonna stick around here for a couple of months because it’s a lot better weather here than it is in London. It is not the time of year to be hanging out in London right now.

Jack Born: Nice. That is fantastic. So how is it, so what have you found to be one of the big challenges to getting to the point where you’re able to actually be in some remote location like Mexico and to have your business running smoothly? Because I know that you’re dealing with time zone issues. I feel like I’m talking to someone who’s going through some of the challenges that I’ve gone through, and I’m tired of hearing my myself talk. So I want to hear, I want everyone to hear from you how, like what are some of the key things that you had to figure out in order to get from where you were early on in your business to be able to have a distributed team and have everything work.

John Ainsworth: Yeah, so I always had a remote team from the beginning, but I spent probably the first two and a half years of the business just getting the delivery processes running well enough. Like that was the huge focus for two and a half, maybe three years, something like that, to get everything to the point where the delivery team was able to completely kill it without me being involved. And that took a lot of different, we got to a point where I had good team members and we had a good system, but it wasn’t like every time we were absolutely crushing it. So we just kept revising and tweaking things and moving the team around and like tweaking, “okay, who’s in charge of what? How do we change this? What do we cut?” And what we found eventually, the thing that really made, there’s two things made a huge difference. One, putting people in charge of an area that they loved being in charge of. So they weren’t just doing something like, “okay, this is what I have to do.” It was like no, no. They love doing that thing, and so they kept getting better at it. So for example Monica on my team is an amazing copywriter. She actually went through one of the courses you put on recently about email copywriting with the…

Jack Born: Stealth Selling?

John Ainsworth: I don’t know what….

Jack Born: Deadline Emails or Stealth Selling?

John Ainsworth: It was specifically about future proofing emails. I think you got somebody external in who talked about future proofing emails, and if anybody hasn’t gone through that training, it’s phenomenal. Future proofing emails are amazing, and it made a huge difference to our whole system. But Monica did that on her own. I didn’t say to her, “go and take that training.” I didn’t have to kind of give her a kickstart on that. I wasn’t the one figuring out what needed to happen. She figured it out, so that kind of thing, getting people in the right position, was huge. And the other one was about beginning of this year, we did an 80/20 analysis of every tactic we’d ever done. We’d done VSLs and webinars and webinar funnels and ‘ask’ funnels and all kinds of clever things. We did an 80/20 analysis of it and we found there were these like eight or nine things that you could do that were absolutely fundamental that you had to do and that almost nobody was doing. And if you did these, it was what made the biggest difference. You got a result like in a week instead of two months, and so we started just focusing on those. So that’s now we’ve got these few things that we do, and we don’t do anything else. And that was what allowed us to get the delivery working well enough that I could go traveling. And then, we had to get the marketing system working, and then I’ve got somebody else doing the sales. And that was like, that’s not a small task but much easier than getting the delivery working well enough to be really happy with it.

Jack Born: Yeah, that makes that makes a lot of sense. There’s so many questions that I could ask, but I know that a lot of our audience would love to get into the details of how it is that you’re able to help clients to, course creators to quickly double their sales and go even further than that. So, why don’t we go through some of that? And as much as I would love to go down the rabbit hole of team building because that’s something that I’m really really fascinated by, let’s stick with the, let’s switch to the funnel building and the conversion rate optimization. So why don’t you take the reins and take the conversation where you want it to go. How is it that you’re able to help clients to dramatically increase their conversion rate so quickly? And I should say not just their conversion rate but their their profit.

John Ainsworth: Yeah, so what we do is we work with a really specific group of people. With online course creators, there are some people who got into it because they’re like, “oh, courses is a way to make money,” and that’s great. Good for them, but that’s not kind of the group that we work with. The group we work with is people who have become an expert in something. They have decided to make a course about it. They’ve put out content about it, often for years, and built up an audience. So that could be on YouTube or a podcast or blogging or whatever it might happen to be, social media, whatever. And then they’re frustrated because they know that there’s something that’s missing. They know they should be making more money, but they don’t and they kind of know about this funnel thing but they don’t really know what they need to do. So they just carry on making more content and more courses. And so what’s happened is these guys have built up this enormous potential in their business, but they’ve never tapped it. And so we’re able to turn up and show them what are the steps you need to do to actually convert those, that traffic into an email list, the email list into sales and the sales into higher revenue sales. So that’s like our, that’s a part of how come we’re able to do it. The other part I think is because we’ve really, really, really focused on the data and found out what are the things that you can, that always work? What are the parts of the process that always work? And there’s three main problems that people have got. Their email list is too small. They don’t make enough sales and profits from their email list, and then their profit, their revenue per sale is too low. So those three things is like a major issue. And I was just thinking the other day when I was thinking about coming on this podcast, I was like, “that sounds kind of like traffic, conversion, and economics in your tactical triangle.” I was like, “oh, it’s good that we managed to invent something that Jack invented already like 10 years ago.”

Jack Born: Well, but yeah. Thank you for the shout out, but you have your own kind of unique bend on it. And so let me ask you because with my methodology, the Tactical Triangle, there’s a starting point that I normally tell people to go to, but I want to hear your point of view. You’re in the trenches all the time, and you’re generating results for clients. So, is there, is there one of those three that you typically start with, or is it really client dependent?

John Ainsworth: It’s always, always starting with increasing revenue per sale because it’s the easiest one to do. And so there’s there’s a few things you can do there. Upsells and order bumps and then also we do work around improving the offer. But the upsells and order bumps is they’re always the place to start. And out of those two, I always start with order bumps because they’re just so straightforward, and if people don’t have them in place, there’s so little copywriting involved in setting up an order bump. You take some product you’ve already got that you think would fit with what you’re selling… You take a product that you’re selling it- what else have I got that might go with this? And you set it up as an order bump. So for anybody who doesn’t know, an order bump is you’re on the checkout page. There’s a tick box that says, “would you also like to get this additional product? It is normally, let’s say, $99, and currently it’s $59”, or something like that. And people can tick the tick box, or they can choose not to. Very straightforward and about…

Jack Born: And one key distinction, tell me unless you disagree, this is before the first transaction. So the bump is before the transaction. You’re adding on to your order as opposed to the upsell which would be after they’ve submitted their payment details.

John Ainsworth: Yeah, exactly, and a lot of people kind of get this terminology mixed up. And it’s quite important because whatever it’s called is the thing it’s called in the software, so you need to know what to look for. Yeah, so an order bump is on that checkout page. And in online courses, about 40 to 60% of people will buy the order bump, so it increases revenue about 20%. if 60% of people get it, and it’s a third of the price of the main products you’re selling, that’s 20% additional revenue. That’s like- you can set this up for all of your products in a day. it’s incredible.

Jack Born: Yeah, 20% is nothing to sneeze at, I mean, especially when your cost of goods sold, typically if we’re talking about online courses, it’s either zero or close to zero. It’s typically negligible so it’s a lot of profit. So, yeah that’s… And it sounds like you and I are a big believer in all of a sudden when you start improving things, 20% here, 30% here, these things multiply together and all of a sudden you’re like, “wow, I’ve completely changed the economics of my business.” Like, it ends up being not just a 20% improvement, and as we go through this, this is how you’re able to achieve those 2x or 5x conversion rates or sales improvement rates because you’re finding these levers which, 20% again is nothing to sneeze at, but it’s also combined with the other improvements that you’re making.

John Ainsworth: Yeah, and I think a lot of people don’t get that. They think they just add up together, but when you have a bigger email list- if your email list is twice as big and you make twice as many sales to the email list and your revenue per sale was twice as much, that would be eight times the revenue. It’s like you don’t just add these things up together, yeah, eight times as big. Yeah, we had a client, David Vignola, who runs home recording studios, like courses about making home recording studios, and he had a call with me, just a free initial call. And I was talking him through this and he’s like, he was using Kajabi and he’s like, “I never heard of this. I’ve never seen this feature.” He goes into Kajabi, and he’s like, “there it is. This feature about order bumps, for order bumps is right there. The one for upsells is right there.” He set them up in three days, and his revenue went up by 40% and has always been up by that 40% ever since. It’s like, that’s thousands of dollars that he just wasn’t getting, and it took him three days to make it. It’s wonderful.

Jack Born: Well, and to add to that, it’s not just how these improvements multiply together, but it also spins the flywheel even faster because a client who’s now making, in your example here, 40% more profit, if they’re being intelligent about that extra profit, they’re not going out and spending it. They’re reinvesting, spending it frivolously. there will come a time for that, but if they reinvested in their business and intelligently purchase additional traffic, now you’re speeding up the rate at which your email list is growing. And so it’s not just that all of these things are multiplying together, the feedback loop is spinning faster and faster and faster, and that’s how businesses can grow really quickly.

John Ainsworth: Yeah, 100%. Yeah, so the second one out of those is the upsell, and like you said, that’s what happens after someone’s made the purchase. So you’ve already bought. You’ve put your credit card details in. You click submit. The purchase has gone through. The next page you show somebody the next thing that they could buy. So if it’s in online courses, then that’s generally the next product they could get. If you’re selling a membership and you sold a month’s worth, well then sell them three months’ worth or a year’s worth. If you’re selling a beginner course, sell the intermediate one or the whole package of everything or just something else whatever the logical next step is. And the thing that makes this really simple to do is you’ve already got sales pages for all of those products that you’re selling, so you just copy the sales page across whatever you’re currently doing. Duplicate it, and then make it into an upsell page which basically means two things. One is, put at the top saying, “your product is on the way. It’ll be with you in 10 minutes in your email inbox.” And the second thing is, putting the countdown on there and saying, “this offer is only gonna last 30 minutes, and it’s going to be a discount for that period. And after that, that discount will be gone. It’ll be back to normal price.” And there’s not that much more to it in terms of, obviously you could you can improve it more than that, but just to get started and set it up, that’s all you really have to do.

Jack Born: And so for those listening, Deadline Funnel can very easily and effectively, it’s one of the simplest evergreen campaigns to set up. And you can set up that countdown timer on your upsell page. Before we move on to the next idea because I want to make sure that we hit all of these, is there one tip that you can give people in terms of how to make their upsell page more effective?

John Ainsworth: So there’s lots of stuff you can do in terms of just improving it as a sales page. I mean the crucial thing that’s absolutely essential from it being an upsell that someone should take now is you’ve got to have a countdown timer, and you’ve got to have a discount on it. Put a healthy discount, 30% off, something like that. There’s a ton of stuff around actually improving the sales pages that I think people can implement. There’s like 15 crucial elements that we think you should have on every single sales page. We took this from, I don’t know if you’ve ever seen Perry Belcher’s 21-step sales page formula, but we went through that and thought, “what are the ones that you absolutely must have?” Like you need ideally have all 21, but we’re trying to simplify it down. And so it’s things like an eye-catching headline. And you’ve got to have a good subheading. And you’ve got a pain, agitation, solution in there. And you’ve got to have bonuses and guarantees. And it’s nothing revolutionary and new, but nearly nobody has all 15 steps.

Jack Born: Yeah, that’s brilliant. So let’s move on to, so we talked about increasing the revenue per transaction, so where do we go from here in your model?

John Ainsworth: So the next one we focus on is then how do you make more sales to your email list? So, what we’re looking at here is four things. So first one, probably the one that people struggle with the most is doing two email promotions a month, and every time that I say that to people, they say, “what? I don’t want to do”, especially online course creators, they say, “I don’t want to do that because I don’t want to be aggressive and spammy and salesy and have everybody unsubscribe from my list and be really annoying.” And the assumption everybody has is that sending out two email promotions a month is going to be annoying and aggressive and spammy because the only way that most people know how to send email promotions is, “buy my stuff, buy my stuff, buy my stuff.” So instead of that, what we teach people to do is use this nine-step email process where we’re trying to provide a lot of value. Like every email should be useful to people, even if they don’t buy. And we’re trying to provide lots of useful content in there that also gets people set up ready to make the sale, ready to buy something from you. So we do that- those nine emails are pain, agitation, solution, gain, logic, fear, going, going, gone. So I’ll just kind of detail a couple of those because we don’t have time to go through the lot. But the first three, pain, agitation, solution, what we’re trying to do is this is all content emails. This is, there’s no sales offer in this. This is just getting people set up ready kind of emotionally to think about the problem. So the pain one might be, “here’s a problem that you are experiencing in your life”, and they maybe don’t understand it. So for example, we’ve got a client in the spirituality space so the problem might be self-love. You are annoyed at yourself all the time. you keep beating yourself up. You need to be kinder to yourself and love yourself more. Well, maybe people don’t even understand why they feel bad. They just know that they’re kind of in a bad mental state and so explaining that problem and helping people in that way. And then the agitation one is, we’re not trying to like stick the knife in and really twist it. What we’re trying to do here is say to people, “this is how this could be affecting your life. This is actually a bigger problem than you might realize. It might be affecting your kids or your relationship with your husband or work or something else,” and just explaining what that process, what that thing in their life is like and giving them that understanding. Then the solution is, “here’s a tip. Here’s something specific you can go and do about it.” And all three of those are helping people to realize, “man, this self-love thing is quite a big deal, isn’t it? I should do something around that.” So the next week when you make an offer and you sell that course, great, everybody’s thinking, “yeah, this is actually something I need to do something about.”

Jack Born: So I’m going to ask a question that hopefully someone in our audience might be thinking which is okay, but if in the solution email, what happens if I completely scratch the itch? So we’ve got pain, agitation, solution. Now they’re not gonna buy my course. what would you say to that?

John Ainsworth: It’s possible, I suppose. Yeah, some people that might be just the only tip that they needed and they use it and that’s fine. Like when you run an email promotion, at most 2% of your email list are gonna buy, and if you have two percent of your email list buy that is huge. Like that happens when you do a major launch or it’s a new product that there’s huge demand for. Normally it’s like 0.5% of your list, and that’s enough if you’ve got a decent sized list to make tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands a month. Like we had a client we made $180,000 a month for that, with that self-love course last month. So, if a whole bunch of people that solves their problem and they’re delighted with it, that’s great. Your marketing should be helping people. That’s a great idea, but that’s not the people who are probably going to buy. If that was- if just one tip was enough for them, they probably weren’t going to buy your course anyway.

Jack Born: Right, yeah, great answer. Okay, so two email promotions a month. What if someone only has one product? Are they sending out different email campaigns to, with different hooks for that same product, or do you typically work with people who have more than one product?

John Ainsworth: So we’re typically working with people who’ve got multiple products, but sometimes people have just got one and that’s what they’ve got. So we’ve got the that client I just mentioned in the spirituality space, they’ve got two courses that we can sell. We’re trying to convince them to make some more ’cause like that would make life a lot easier, but since they’ve got two, we promote those two courses every month. Now, how do you do that without being annoying? Like you say, you have different hooks. So you have to find different angles, different things in someone’s life that this course might solve. A different way that it might help with it. So for example one thing that we did was during the Olympics in Tokyo, there was something going around on social media, a quote from somebody connected with the Olympics, who was having a problem around beating himself up too much and being kind of self-aggressive. And this was seen everywhere on social media, so that was a great starting point. So then Monica our copywriter wrote a whole sequence that was starting from that point and leading on. Now, it gets tricky. You have to get creative. You have to think of, “how can I come up with enough different ways so that this is still providing value and it’s still useful?” What happens with this if you have just one course and you’re promoting it in all these different ways, eventually if someone went through every single email you did they’d probably get all of the tips or a lot of tips from in the course and they’d see a lot of bits of content and that’s also okay. It’s also fine if someone is willing to go and do that and then they don’t want to pay the whatever $99 to get the course. It’s like, that’s all right. Some people haven’t got that much money, but you do have to get pretty creative to figure out those those different angles on it.

Jack Born: Yeah, that’s great. So we’ve talked about increasing the cart value, how much someone is spending when they transact. We’ve talked about sending promotions more frequently. So now I think the last one is growing your email list. So what sort of tips can you give the audience about that?

John Ainsworth: Yeah, so there’s some really straightforward ones that a lot of people are going wrong with, and this is specifically if people have got traffic coming in from somewhere already. So, for nearly everybody I would- No, for everybody, I would say turn off double opt-in. A lot of the email marketing systems have that on by default, and the reason they do is because you don’t want people on your list who it’s not their real email or they don’t actually read the emails. But you can cut out people who aren’t reading your emails, if they don’t read the first ten. You can run a system every month that gets rid of people who haven’t opened emails for three months. You don’t have to get rid of everybody who doesn’t open and click on that very first email. And that one will increase a lot of people’s revenue by about, we’ve increased people’s revenue about 20% just from that alone. Second one is have a great lead magnet instead of a newsletter. A lot of people have a newsletter as their opt-in, and that converts terribly. It’s awful. Set up a lead magnet and have it everywhere on your site. Have it as a pop-up, which I know is kind of annoying, but that’s what works. Have it on the sidebar on your blog. Have it within every blog post. Almost nobody does this, but if you’ve got a 2,000 word blog post, you should have the lead magnet promoted within that top, middle and bottom. So have a button for it. Have a little bit of text about, have a few different versions of that text, and have those throughout every single blog post on your site. So that makes a huge difference and that can normally get most people from- the average person is at 0.5 to 1% opt-in rate on site. And most people can get to about 2% to 5%. The best we’ve ever seen is 7.5%.  Next one is point to that lead magnet from all of your traffic off site as well. So if you’ve got social media, if you’ve got Instagram and Facebook and YouTube and a podcast, always link off to the lead magnet and build up your email list that way. So YouTubers really, really need to do this early because you can’t change your Youtube video later. You can do this with podcasts. It’s hard, but you can do it with podcasts. You can easily do it with blogs. You can’t do it later with YouTube, so if you’ve got a YouTube channel, start from the very beginning mentioning one of your lead magnets and never change those links. I’ve got a friend in the fitness space. He runs WODprep which is a workout of the day crossfit kind of site, and some of his earliest videos that he ever did are still his most popular from like years and years ago. But luckily he pointed to lead magnets in them, so the millions of people who’ve seen them have had the chance to go and sign up for his pull-up challenge or whatever it is.

Jack Born: So do you have any tips around making an effective lead magnet? I know that we could probably talk for an hour on this topic alone but is there something that you’ve found that is a common characteristic of successful lead magnets?

John Ainsworth: Yeah, get clients a small result fast. So don’t provide “the ultimate guide” to something. Don’t provide, often ebooks aren’t the best ones either. What we found tends to work really well is checklists, templates. So we had a client who was in the photography space, and he had filters that you could set up on Lightroom or something like that that were available for free. We’ve got a client in the digital painting space, and for his he had digital painting brushes, 38 digital painting brushes that you could download straight away. If people want to see that one, it’s, a great site for, that’s the one with a really, really high opt-in rate. So you can copy a lot from that site. And so that kind of thing, a template, a download, something that people can get the result from instantly generally seems to work really well.

Jack Born: Yeah, that’s what I’ve found as well. So it sounds like you’ve got some fantastic intellectual property around like the 80/20, the key things that really move the needle for your clients. So do you write about this? Do you share these tips, or is this intellectual property that you really just implement for your private clients and coaching clients?

John Ainsworth: I share as much of it as I possibly can. I’m trying to spread the good word. I’m like and our marketing can do more good than we can for our clients and that’s awesome. So I do training about this every couple of weeks in our Facebook group which is the Advanced Course Creators group on Facebook. I’ve got free training videos about it on the website I do blog posts about it there. I do as much as I can to just try and share this with everybody.

Jack Born: That’s great, and so do you have a lead magnet that you typically point people to?

John Ainsworth: So the thing that we’ve got that most people find the most helpful is we’ve got a calculator. So people can learn how much more money they could be making from their online course business. So they can get that at People think that we’ve managed to automate this, and we actually haven’t figured out how. So we go through and manually do this for each person who fills it in. We will figure out for you, “you could make this much more money in your business if you changed this thing around upsells or order bumps or what have you”, and send out like a personalized email with all the details of it. So that normally comes through in a couple of days.

Jack Born: There’s got to be a way to automate at least some of that.

John Ainsworth: Yeah, there probably is. I kind of want to make it less automated in a way. I want to set something up where we’re doing a personal video and actually going through people’s site and looking at this is, look- I wanna convey to people not just “this is a thing that exists” but like “this is a thing that you can do.” So we’re thinking about turning it into like a video we record for people, so that’s why I’ve not gone as far as automating it yet. But I probably could. You’re right. I probably could do that.

Jack Born: I mean, I love testing completely different sides of this, right? So you have like the quick answer that’s completely automated, and then on the other end, you have the very bespoke surprising people with the high quality of, we’ve gone through and recorded this two minute video for you. So I like testing both of those because you know you’re gonna get some sort of signal one way or the other, so that’s great. This has been really, really fascinating, and you and I were talking before we started the call just the importance of focusing on the fundamentals. Maybe we could wrap up by just talking a little bit about where people get distracted in their business versus focusing on the fundamentals and just how important it is.

John Ainsworth: So I think that the big thing that seems to cause a problem with this – I’ve been thinking about it a lot recently trying to understand it – is that if the 80/20 rule is true, which we know it is, then that means that some things you do are 16 times as effective as other things. And if it’s fractal, which it is, then that also means that some things are like 100 times as effective as other things you’re doing. So why is it that people don’t run that analysis? They don’t double down on the ones that work, and they don’t find and they don’t stop doing the ones that don’t? I think there’s a couple of reasons. One, a lot of people don’t do the analysis. They don’t collect the data. So we’re obsessive about tracking everything from every part of the funnel to find out what is the things that matter. So they don’t collect the data. they don’t do the analysis, but I think there’s a really big emotional part to it as well. I think if you’ve got something that’s working to a certain level, and you’re like, “I want to cut this part that’s working less well so I can do more of this thing that’s working better”, you’ve now got to give up something that’s working. And humans are much more loss averse than they are in favor of gain. So when you stop doing something that’s working, that’s really emotionally uncomfortable, and so I think what the problem is, is people don’t sit with that emotional discomfort. I think that’s the fundamental underlying problem with it, is people aren’t willing to sit with the discomfort of letting go in order to get the thing that’s bigger. I know for me I find it very uncomfortable. Even when I look at something I’m like, “I definitely should cut this, and I definitely should do more of that,” and then I’m like, “okay, why aren’t I doing that?” I have to have these long meditations and journaling, just sitting with it and being like, “okay, this needs to happen. I have to work through this somehow.”

Jack Born: Yeah, I think you’re right and maybe part of it is because there are so many things that we try that just flat out don’t work, and those are easy to stop doing most of the time. But when we finally find something that works even a little bit, it’s tough to let go because hey, we found something that actually works and now I’m gonna stop doing that? Yes, that’s actually what you’re supposed to do. Because there are essentially taller mountains. So rather than focusing on climbing this small hill, find this taller mountain, find the leverage points in your business. I want to circle back real quick because this might have flown over some people’s heads, but this is a really key point. I want you to explain this. How is it that we go from 80/20 to things being 16 times or 100 times more impactful? You mentioned fractal. I know what you’re talking about, but can you explain for everyone listening what you mean?

John Ainsworth: Yeah, so the 80/20 rule tells us that 20% of stuff that we do gets us 80% of the results, and what fractal means is you can apply something, you can apply that same rule again. So the concept of fractal people can look it up very easily if you look at like the leaves on a tree. They’ve got these veins that kind of branch out. Well that same branching shape is the same as the whole tree and all of the trunk and all of the branches and all of the twigs and then the leaves and then these veins on them. So it’s where you get the same shape continually. And so the way that works with the 80/20 rule is 20% of that 20% gets you 80% of the 80% results, so that means 4% of what you do gets you 64% of the results. And you can track this. You can actually look at it with real data and you see that it is always true. It just always keeps happening. The percentage might vary slightly, but the shape of this and the power curve is the mathematical shape that you can actually see this. But what that means then is 20% of the 20% of the 20% gets you 80% of the 80% of the 80% of the results, which means you 1% of what you do, gets you 99, get sorry gets you nine, I forget what the exact number is now, 99% of the results something like that. It’s like huge. No, sorry, it gets you 50% results. 4% gets you 64% results. 1% gets you 50% of the results, and so that means 1% of what you’re doing gets you as much as the other 99% of everything that you’re doing. So it’s 99 times as effective, which is like okay, what’s that bit? Can we do some more of that? That’s really the fundamental idea here which is very unintuitive but completely true.

Jack Born: All right, John, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate you spending this time with me and sharing your wisdom. This is really really powerful stuff, and I know this has been great for me as well because it’s a reminder to go back to basics, but I’ve seen the 80/20 working in my business over and over and over again. Sometimes I need to cut out that painful bit that isn’t getting me the the results that I need, but that’s the struggle right? So, thank you very much for this conversation. Thank you for the reminder to focus on the key things that are really gonna move the needle, and thank you for the discussion about the key things that are gonna help people really boost their conversions, their profits and help them scale their business.

John Ainsworth: Yeah, thank you, Jack. I appreciate it.