April 7, 2020

Stephanie’s passion is to help other professionals to realize that Yes You Can invest in property with little money, escape your 9-5 within a year and create a life you love.

Deadline Funnel has helped her grow her accidental online coaching business Rent 2 Rent Success to £90k in 9 months and is on target for 6 figures in their first year with a tiny audience and little online marketing/technical knowledge.

Watch the video of my interview with Stephanie, or read the transcript below!


Rent 2 Rent Success YouTube channel Rent 2 Rent Success Deadline Funnel


Jack: Tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do and how you got into this.

Stephanie: Yeah, it’s been so exciting because I come from a different world, not the online world. So this is just totally a new thing for me and incredibly exciting and life changing. And so as we said earlier, I’m from the UK as you can tell by the accent. But I live in Wales in a city part Newport, it’s near Cardiff. And three years ago, my life changed quite dramatically when I was working in a bank and I knew about opportunities that in property to start off without lots of money and create a business without buying properties initially. But then obviously you create that cash flow, then you can start buying properties and really sort of build up wealth over time. And I was too scared to start for a long time.

Stephanie: And then my mom got ill. And you know you get those moments of clarity where you can just see things really clearly? And I could see really clearly that I needed to change my life in quite a big way. So that my values in life, like my family and I can actually live those values. So if she was ill, I could go and spend a couple of months or three months, or however long it need be to be with her until she gets better. As opposed to the life I had where I needed to earn that high salary to live a life that I don’t have time to enjoy. So that was the moment of clarity that even though I was afraid and worried it might not work out, I decided to take the jump into business and that property business, it still amazes me. So that was just three years ago and we built up a really good income from that and got stuff and systematized that business.

Stephanie: So we took the [inaudible 00:02:10] within three years as new beginners to 400,000 pounds. And also within that period we bought property worth over a million pounds and we’ve got sort of development plans for the properties. So that was the very, very beginning and that that company is called HMO Heaven. If anyone wants to know more about that.

Stephanie: But what then happened is I’m quite a shy person, but I started doing these YouTube videos because I was so amazed because I thought, “Well, there’s lots of people who are exactly like me.” Sometimes in property I think these training courses come over as quite scammy or you wonder if it’s really applicable to people like me who maybe haven’t got or who didn’t have like connections or a lot of financial wealth in my family or things like that. And I thought, “Is it really applicable to me?”

Stephanie: And so I thought by me saying, “Well, actually this is what we use, or this is what you can do. This is how it works.” People who like me might be inspired. And I enjoyed doing it because I was so excited about the opportunity and how things were going and sharing the challenges as well that we were having as you become, or you have to become a different person to deliver different kind of results.

Stephanie: So I started this YouTube channel, which was called HMO Heaven, and lots of people were interested and excited about it and they were asking me, “Do you do coaching or mentoring or this or that?” Well, we didn’t at that time and we would obviously refer them to other people who we knew did do coaching and mentoring and training people and how to do this strategy.

Stephanie: But then the same people would come back to us and we say, “Well, did you not go on the course or the training or whatever?” Yes they did, but they only got this part, or they only got that part, or there’s no ongoing support. They would just go for the day or two, gather all the info. But then when you’re implementing it, you need more support, that’s when it really counts. And so eventually I thought, “Well, I could do it. You know, maybe we could do something better that’s for longer where we give people more support on the way.” And that’s how the idea, the seed of the idea of the online course started.

Jack: Okay. That’s awesome. So, you started getting feedback from this audience of people who are watching your YouTube videos and that’s interesting. It kind of reminds me of of how we started Deadline Funnel initially. Aye. All right. So I had this idea that I wanted, surely someone must have solved the whole solution of having urgency and using deadlines, but doing it in a way that’s not scammy. That’s authentic, but automated. And I went around and looked and looked and looked and there just wasn’t anything. So, I think you came to kind of a similar realization is that what people wanted just wasn’t out there. And so you thought, “Hey, why don’t I create this?” So that’s terrific.

Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah. And it terrific and kind of scary as well.

Jack: So how long ago did you start with your online course?

Stephanie: Well, it was just January of this year. So we’re now in September. So we’ve been doing this for nine months and yeah, it’s been fun.

Jack: What is something that, if you could tell someone who’s just starting out, starting to create their first online course, what sort of advice would you give them?

Stephanie: Okay, well what I would say is, first of all, there’s huge power in a small community. So if you’ve got a group, whether it’s 20 people, 50 people, or even 70 or whatever the number is, who are interested in talking to you about the thing that you’re passionate about, then that’s all you need. I think the main thing is just to get started you don’t have to know before you start, because I used to think that other people knew things that I didn’t know. Obviously that is true, but they didn’t know them when they started, they found them out along the way.

Stephanie: I think it’s a bit like having a baby, you can read all the books you want, you can go to all the classes you want, but you only learn how, what it’s like to be a parent when you are a parent, you learn along the way and you become better. So I think if this is what you want to do, make it a mission of your life that you cannot get through life without having done it and make sure that you do it and just open yourself up to say, “I don’t know everything, but I can find it out and I can make this work.” Everything you want to do has already been done and somebody out there knows the answer and you can know it as well.

Jack: That’s really great advice. Really good advice. So, so how have things been going for you? Why don’t you share? I don’t know what you’re comfortable sharing. You don’t have to share what you shared with us, but what can you share about how things have been going so far?

Stephanie: Yeah. Well I’m just going to go back a little set because sometimes people think, well that’s okay for her because she’s got this or she’s got that. But actually when we started in January, we sort of started publicizing it a little bit in December last year. And I started a Facebook group specific to this course, which is called Rent to Rent Kickstarter, and the brand is called Rent to Rent Success.

Stephanie: So I started the Facebook group. I didn’t want it to be on the HMO Heaven, which had other kinds of people. I wanted it to be specific to this people Rent to Rent Success Secrets. So we started a Facebook group just at the end of 2018 and so obviously we started off with zero people, but we were putting out really good, valuable content and I wouldn’t say, well we’re not experts on online things, but we’ve now got 1,700 people in the group. But when we were launching the course, initially we only had a few hundred people in the group. And then I also started a separate YouTube channel, it’s specifically about this business and the idea of giving people information how to make this idea work for themselves, which is called Rent to Rent Success on YouTube, subscribe.

Stephanie: Rent to Rent Success on YouTube and we only started that in February this year. So that’s been going, it’s at seven months I think? And we only have, we have 440 subscribers, so I just want to lay the baseline that people know that we only have got a small community. And when we originally first started, we had 600 people on the mailing list as well. Now we’ve got just over double that, but we haven’t been using advertising. It’s just all been organic. So that’s the background.

Stephanie: And so what happens was in January, I was sort of going slightly crazy because I’d written this course, I needed to get it all on to an online platform. I needed to do all these live videos about the course and be selling online, which is like ugh, very cringy and I did all that. We gave ourselves a ridiculous deadlines, it was just crazy. And, but we got it up and we launched it on the back of a Facebook live, which we laughingly called, well we didn’t even call it a webinar, but I suppose in some senses it would be a webinar, except there wasn’t all those slides about, “You’re getting this, you’re getting that, you’re getting the other.” It was like massive value. And then at the end, “Well, you know what, we’re starting a course. Do you want to jump on to it? Jump on.”

Jack: It’s better to get it going than to get it perfect, right?

Stephanie: Yeah. So we did that and we thought to ourselves, because we’d sort of read up what other people do and we were working with a local person who’s a coach, Kylie Menz, I will if anybody wants to know more about Kylie or anything, they can message me. But Kylie had help to push us. The main part of what Kylie was doing actually is saying, “Go for it. Keep going. Don’t stop. Keep going. Don’t stop.” Which we have a lot of motivation ourself, but I think there was a lot of resistance when you start doing anything new, even though you’re motivated to the goal. So I really encourage people to get a coach to push them on and if they want to get results more quickly.

Stephanie: So we got the course launched [inaudible 00:11:15]. And we had read up that you just do a beta course and you need to have a few people on it and then you get great results for them. And so we thought, well 12 people is kind of a nice amount to have on this course. And we thought if we could get that, that would be amazing. And we decided to charge it 625 pounds for this beta course and we got 24 people who wanted to sign up, who signed up.

Stephanie: We had to turn away six because we thought, “You know what we can split.” We’d already told the people that it was going to be 12 so we wanted to, so we split into two groups. We had one Facebook group, but the meetings were in two groups so that we would be able to commit to our promise, which was 12 people. So we didn’t want to take the other six because we thought we’re already over subscribed, if you will. But that was it, that’s how we started it. That was the first thing. So we did that little launch to start off with.

Jack: That’s terrific. That’s terrific. So where did Deadline Funnel come into the picture? How did that come about?

Stephanie: Right. Okay. So as you can imagine, it was a lot of energy, a lot of time, emotional energy. I can’t describe it because it just felt like as soon as he woke up he said, “Oh my gosh.” It’s the thought of doing another. We did do another launch as well, and that’s where we worked with Jacques Hopkins, the online course guy who was incredible. And he has a $1 million piano course, which is the most unlikely of topics to be such a successful course. But he’s really honed a system where it’s all on automatic, automated. He’s an engineer or he was an engineer beforehand. And so I had Jacques podcasts, the Online Course Guy Podcast. And I thought, “Wow, this is incredible.”

Stephanie: I don’t know if I knew about it, I was sort of finding out about it and I sort of came across to your YouTube channel and I thought, “Oh my goodness.” So we just decided to work with Jacques can sort of replicate what he was doing. And originally we did another launch with him and after that second launch, because I said I wanted to launch live again. And after that I just thought, “I can’t do this again.” Because as well we have the other business. So I was like full time on this side of the business doing these launches and wearing myself out. And it’s when you really care about something, the emotional toll of it, it’s hard to say. You think launching and online course it doesn’t sound emotional, but it’s really tiring.

Jack: It can really take over your life, can’t it?

Stephanie: Yeah. And we decided to do a PLF, product launch formula style launch with all the videos. So that was a lot of filming and preparation and production and all of that. And also we did a webinar again the same. And so we got through it and it was a great results, again. We put the price up to 997 and we had 30 people join us that time and we just decided, “Let’s make this automated.”

Stephanie: And I was a bit nervous about that again, but working with Jacques was what made it really work for us. I think it would have taken us such a long time, not to work out Deadline Funnel because that’s quite straightforward, but to just work out everything of how to do the automated funnel. I just realized with the information that we’re giving to people that you can move so much faster if you’ve got the whole thing. And so that’s why I decided to invest to work with a coach and to implement getting Deadline Funnel into an evergreen funnel so that we are always launching without launching. And the idea was that I could sit back drinking coffee or my tea and just watch it all happening.

Jack: Now that you have it set up, is that working the way that you wanted it to?

Stephanie: We were amazed really how well it worked. So we put all the pieces in place and the Deadline Funnel was one of the easiest pieces to put in place and I don’t have to touch it. That’s one of the bits of the funnel that just always works. I can’t remember the last time I looked into Deadline Funnel, possibly when I set it up. You don’t have to tweedle with it, it’s just always there, which is great.

Stephanie: And what happened was we then put through the funnel, everybody who was on the list who’d been through a couple of the previous lives, we started this in, was it July? I think it was July, August.Yes, yes. It was July we turned on this funnel. And so I just thought, “Right, okay I’ll put through.” So gradually I put through everybody on the list because some had been through the previous launch in May. So I thought us that’s enough time. Say we put everybody through this automated funnel. So we had, I think it would have been, I’m not sure how many, I should’ve got this ready. But we put everybody through, it wasn’t more than a 1000.

Stephanie: And we had a conversion rate because I worked too out of 3% which we were happy with because the bits of our funnel are not perfect. So the webinar is not perfect. We’re gradually going to replace the different elements, but all different parts of it the landing pages could be improved. There’s lots of things that we could evolve. But what I loved about it was that 10 to 12 people were joining every month. And also other thing it meant was we could welcome people better because as people were coming in in ones and twos we can welcome into the group better, make sure that they’ve got everything they need as the joining the course and joining the group.

Stephanie: So I think it made it a better experience rather than having 30 people coming on at once. We’ve got different people coming in. Because that was another barrier cause I didn’t know how it was going to work with different people coming in at different times. Whereas previously we took everyone through the six weeks. Initially it was six weeks, it’s now eight weeks. But we took everyone through together. So on all the live calls we’re talking about the content that’s relevant to that specific bit. But then I thought, “How is it going to work for evergreen?” But we’ve totally changed it so that it does not work.

Jack: So talk to me about that. What sort of methods are you using so that as people come in that they’re integrating into your calls?

Stephanie: Yes. Say what we do is we use email software. We’ve got Active Campaign to automatically email them. So when they join they get automatic emails and that welcome, welcome. On the thank you page there’s a video welcoming them and explaining them what to happen and how to log in and that we’re so excited for them coming on board. And then they get some emails telling them their live call dates and everything.

Stephanie: And then I have a VA and so she’s got a few tasks to make sure that that in the group to send them a personal message within Gmail to say that they would have received these three emails and she’s there to help them and anything else they need or if they haven’t received the automated emails, to let us know. And then once their in the Facebook group, they get a personal message in there where they invited to say why they joined and what they’re hoping for.

Stephanie: And then you don’t have to have a live element to your course, obviously. We chose to have a live element to our course, so every week we have live online calls. And so they, in Active Campaign, it gives them what it will be 12, but at the moment it’s eight. It’s automated emails to invite them to those calls for 12 weeks. Then at the end of their time in the actual course, it then offers them the, what’s it called? There’s a group you can stay on in the group afterwards and get other things. And it’s all part of the automated email campaign.

Jack: So when you do a live call, are, are there some people who have just joined versus some people have been in for several weeks?

Stephanie: Yes.

Jack: So how do you do a live call that’s not too advanced for the new or it’s too rudimentary? How do you do that?

Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah. That was my concern. So what we do know is we basically over the time that they’re with us they do two things. One is they set up their business and two, they start marketing and speaking to people and getting deals. So really we realize there’s two key elements. So the setting up the business and the marketing and negotiating and say we alternate each week so that there’s a focus on one or the other. So a one week is the focus on the business builder call. The next week is the magnetic marketing call. So whatever stage people are at, they can choose to go to all of them or they can go to some of them. If they come to a business builder call and they’ve got a marketing question, obviously we’re still getting to answer them. But it just gave a structure to it and so that people knew what to expect.

Jack: That’s great. So here’s an idea. I don’t know if this would be useful for you, but hopefully someone watching this will be able to use this. So there was a thought leader business expert named Rich Schefren years ago. He did something similar where he had people coming in all the time. And so let’s say over the course of the year there was 12 modules. And so I said, “Rich, how are you doing your live calls?” Because he would do a lot of calls twice a month. “How are you doing a lot of calls? Because someone might be asking a module 10 question and then someone has just joined with module one.”

Jack: So first of all, he would set up his calls where, let’s say it’s an hour, the first half was him just lecturing and then the second half is Q and. A. But when he got to the Q and A, if someone asks a question… he said, “If they ask the question at whatever level they ask the question at advance, medium or beginner, I would answer it at that level and then try to also answer it for the rest of the people.” So he would if it’s an advanced question, he would answer it. And he’d say, “Now if you’re just new, that might sound a little advanced. So here’s what you need to be thinking about. You need to be thinking about X, Y, and Z.” And so he would segue into what beginners or someone who’s intermediate should be thinking about. And so he’d tried to make those answers applicable to everyone.

Stephanie: Yeah. That’s a brilliant way to do it. The thing that I offer to people who are in that situation that I was in where you’re kind of resistant to the idea of going evergreen and having people joining all the time is that people have done it. It absolutely works. People have done it and are delivering courses are getting great results to people on an evergreen basis. So there is a way to deliver the results that you want on an evergreen basis, you just need to find out what it is.

Jack: And you pointed out something that I’ve written about before, which I want to make sure that we emphasize this, is that there’s the positive of doing a big launch is that you have lots of revenue coming in. However, now you have a surge of clients that are looking for hand holding and support. Whereas when you’re getting people coming in on a regular basis, as those numbers start to grow and grow as your advertising reach begins to grow, you could hire additional people. It’s a steady kind of increase rather than like, “Oh, all of a sudden we’ve got a flood of new people and then nothing.” It’s a lot studier. I see you nodding your head, is that accurate?

Stephanie: Absolutely. And the other thing is you may not get a flood of people, so you might put all of this time, effort, dedication, production, energy, emotions into a launch that doesn’t deliver for you. And there’s every chance of that, especially if you’ve got a smaller audience and especially if you’re not advertising, but even if you are. So what I like now is that we can put our energy into delivering results for our students rather than into marketing for new students, because that’s happening automatically.

Stephanie: So what happened originally was we were just organic traffic coming from YouTube and the Facebook group, as I say, very small. And we were making 10,000 pounds a month at that stage, so we were absolutely delighted because as I say, this is only turned on from, yeah, July and August, so this is the third month. But what we’ve decided now is that this isn’t enough because we’ve only got five people, it’s trickled down because at the beginning I put everybody through the list.

Stephanie: So now what I realized recently about 10 says ago was we’ve got five people on average joining the emailing lists so the funnel, and that’s not enough. Because say if you’ve got a conversion rate between one and 3% and you want at least 10 people to join every month, it means you need at least 100, is at least 1000. You need 100 people for every sales, you need 1000 people every month to be joining your emailing list and obviously when your conversion gets better you can do it with fewer, but I thought, how can we get two from five people a day, which is, is that 150 a month? Yes, I think so. Well, how do we get from 150 a month to basically 10 timesing it to get to 1000, 1,500 in the first instance. And obviously advertising is one of the answers to that question and we decided to try Facebook ads.

Stephanie: So I’ve been doing that for 10 days, so it’s very new and that’s been exciting as well. So I did a little course for that as well because Facebook because is not something that’s easy to understand. But with the course I was able to put up the ads and it’s been really good. So originally I think I put up four and I’m still running two and the two are doing so, so well, I mean I worked out the seven day totals. Yeah. So, I had in seven days previously, the previous seven days before I started the ads, I had 37 people joining to the mailing list. And the next seven days once I’d switched on the ads, I had 137 people join the mailing list. And those leads were coming in, some of the other ones that I switched up were more expensive so I switched them off. But these leads are coming in under $3 so when I look they’re between two $2 and 30 and and you know, $2 and 90 odd.

Jack: Oh, that’s great.

Stephanie: Yeah, we’re really chuffed with it. So I’m just at the phase where we I’ve been testing it for about 10 days and I think now is the time to, based on the evidence from those tests is to put a few more on it.

Jack: Well let me quick free advice. Make sure that you do not pause those working ads. Keep them running because Facebook doesn’t like it. When you’re dialed in with really good low cost leads and the conversions are great, no matter what’s going on, if you’ve got to change your funnel, don’t pause the ads.

Stephanie: Right, okay. Thank you.

Jack: It’s really challenging. You’ll find that when you start things back up again, things are not going to be working the same as they were.

Stephanie: Brilliant.

Jack: So is there anything else about your journey that you want to share that we haven’t talked about? Anything that would be helpful for someone who is just beginning their online course creation journey?

Stephanie: Yeah, I think so. I think basically it’s, you can do it. You absolutely can do this. You don’t need to be an online expert or technical or young even, because I started the first business, which has been going for three years when I was 45. So people sometimes let all of these things put them off, “Oh, I’m too old.” Or, “I don’t know technical things.” Or whatever. You can absolutely do it. And it’s less complicated than you think and more exciting than you think. And within a year because we’re not even to the end of the year and we have a small community, as I say, and we will have made over 100,000 pound in the business. I think we sort of about 90,000 pounds at the moment.

Jack: Fantastic.

Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah, it is. And, and we’re just in the process of looking at these ads and so on. And I’m sure that once we get into our groove with the ads that we will take things to the next level with the course. So I really encourage people to do it, to take the first step. I think is it Martin Luther King who says, “Take the first step, even if you can’t see the whole staircase, take the first step.”

Jack: Yeah. And I love your, I love your advice and your attitude about, you may not know it, but someone has figured this out. And so not only can you figure it out, but sometimes you can bring someone onto your team who knows the answer. So whether you’re hiring them for a part time project or they’re going to become a permanent part of your team. For example, if you’re not a technical wizard, yeah, you can learn to become maybe not a wizard, but you can learn the tech. But another alternative is that if you do really well at the parts of your business that you excel at, you’re working in your genius zone of genius, you have your business humming along, then you can afford to bring someone on your team who fills those roles, fills in those gaps of knowledge and expertise.

Stephanie: I love that. I love that. And that is another thing that many people are resistant to. We’ve sort of got over the hurdle because we have got staff in our main the property business and I do have a VA in this business. But as you said, there are so many areas where I could bring somebody in who really knows their stuff and it would release so much of my time and energy and I think that’s one of the next steps for us to do that and really not be limited by what I don’t know.

Jack: Yeah. So one of the things, again, a little bit of free advice is, in my opinion the way to do it is to really try to hire top level A players. It’s more money, but it’s always worth it. Now, sometimes it’s a little bit of a search to find those A players, but finding a player just really completely transformed your business. And when you have multiple A players, it’s amazing what you can do then your job is really to get out of their way and to let them do what they’re great at. And that’s when things get really exciting.

Stephanie: Yeah, I love that. I love that advice. And can I ask you, you’ve obviously worked with a lot of course creators and you’ve seen beginner people at my stage maybe. What would you say are some of the important next steps for me to take to go up in terms of either the people to hire or any other tips or guidance that you would give?

Jack: Yeah, so I’ll just go a level deeper in what I was talking about. So, you’ve taken the first and probably one of the more challenging steps which is to develop your evergreen client acquisition. And the reason why that’s so important is so that it’s not based on launches. You still may do launches and that’s going to be additional revenue, but you know that your business has got X amount of dollars coming in. You can work on your landing pages, you talked about that before. You can tweak your landing pages, you can tweak your webinar, you can improve things and test things and find things that are going to make the whole system better. But you know that you can reliably predict cashflow, if anything it’s going to go up. And so what that gives you the confidence to do is to go on a search for attracting talent, finding talent, attracting talent and retaining talent.

Jack: And so that’s really where there’s this switch that entrepreneurs and especially online course creators have to go through where you go from the startup of, usually for most people it’s the hustle, it’s the grind, it’s the hustle. It’s staying up late, it’s doing things that are outside your comfort zone that if someone’s not a techie person, but they’ve got to figure out how to do this techie thing so you’re wearing all these different hats and you’re wearing them multiple different times during the day. So as things start to click, what you want to do is you want to bring in key players on your team. And sometimes that means hiring someone for a few hours a week. Sometimes that means hiring someone permanently. But it should be a process of leveling up. You improve your business, you bring on team members, which improves your business so you can bring on team members, which improves your business.

Jack: And as you do this, one of the challenges that you’re going to face is that you’re going to go from being a solo entrepreneur to being the leader of a talented team. And so then it becomes a matter of your personal development’s going to really need to focus around growing your skills and talents as a leader. So for example, so what I did was… and part of it I have to confess, some of it is luck, but I think a lot of my team members have been with me for four, five or more years. And so I think I’m doing some things right. So as a general philosophy, I took everything that was done to me at my last corporate job. And I said, “I’m just going to do the opposite.”

Jack: So for example, at my last corporate job, managers would ask for our opinions and I foolishly gave my opinion thinking that they actually wanted my opinion. But what they really wanted was for me to validate their opinion. And so what I’ve really done is I’ve fostered a culture where I’m not the smartest person in the room and I want consenting viewpoints. A lot of times we go with their ideas, not my ideas. And there’s no sacred cow. I mean I could say something and someone can say, “Well, acutally I don’t agree with that. I think that that’s wrong and here’s an article that backs me up.” Or, “My past experience just tells me that I think that you’re wrong.” And I love that. I don’t want to be the smartest person on my team. I don’t want to be the person with all the answers. I don’t want to be the person who, who has to come up with all of the cool new features and the best ideas.

Jack: And so I’ve hired a team that is extremely talented and I really tried to cultivate an environment where they are free to do what they want to do. And I mostly stay out of their way. And so I’ve gone really I look at myself as really being more of on the board of directors of my business. So it’s not even being the CEO because the CEO is still kind of a boss. Whereas a board of directors is really meeting with the top level team members or all the team members and hearing, everyone understands a corporate culture, everyone understands what the goals are. So, “How are you guys doing? Is there anything that I can help with? Are there any obstacles that I can move out of your way? Are there any tools or resources or training that you need? And do we need to hire someone?” And so really my job is to facilitate that.

Jack: And one more thing, but I’ll mention is that I think it’s really, really important to have the communication with your team. You know how there’s a lot of advice out there, good advice about how you need to constantly be looking at what you’re doing and take like say for example $10 an hour types of tasks and give that to someone else. And as your business grows you should be doing fewer $100 an hour tasks and doing more thousand dollar an hour tasks. Keep adding more… Nope that’s okay. I think my team was trying to bump me out.

Jack: So where was I? So in the same way that you are supposed to be trying to focus more and more in your zone of genius, if you can do that for your team members and say, my right hand guy, “Look, you shouldn’t be answering the support ticket.” Or, “You shouldn’t be writing this code. We have developers that do this. You used to do that, but now I want to increase your pay and have you do stuff is really in your zone of genius.” And then you bring someone on who can take those things over. So you ladder everyone’s as you move up and you’re focusing on your zone of genius, someone takes over that role and someone takes over that role, et cetera, et cetera. And so you keep moving people up.

Jack: And so if you can do that, then what ends up happening is that people are getting paid more, just like you should be getting paid more and more for actually doing less and less. You’re using more of your brain, but you’re actually physically doing less and less. In the same way everyone on your team should be getting paid more and more and actually doing less and less and enjoying what they do more and more.